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目标片段对于托勒斯基来说，只是领导层的官僚化，因此，只要纠正政治路线，社会主义仍然可能恢复他的本来面目。但是美国人伯纳姆逐渐拒绝这个解释。他认为，苏联问题不是领导人犯错，而是苏联社会结构已经发生质的改变。统治苏联的不再是工人阶级，而是一个由官僚和技术管理者构成的新型统治集团。这种结构不是苏联独有伯纳姆说，纳粹德国和新政的美国，就小罗斯福的美国也在朝着类似方向发展。
来源片段And so what he does in The Managerial Revolution is he argues that capitalism is collapsing and in the Soviet Union capitalism has been defeated, but it has not been replaced by socialism. The workers aren't ruling the Soviet Union. And in Burnham's view, they probably couldn't. That probably is an impossibility. What's happened instead is that a new managerial class of bureaucrats and technocrats have taken over the state. And what Burnham crucially does in The Managerial Revolution is he takes this analysis of the Soviet Union and he begins to apply it to other countries. So he argues that Nazi Germany is in an example of the same phenomenon. It's a state in which capitalism has been replaced by the rule of a new class of bureaucrats and managers.
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来源片段
So would you be able to characterize what made a Trotskyite mindset in the context of the stories we've been discussing so far different maybe in the 1930s? So we're talking about people who've come out of that anti-Stalinist milieu particularly in the United States but not exclusively in the United States.
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我们看的是为什么在20世纪美国很多赫赫有名的保守知识分子，他们在年轻的时候都是托洛斯基派。我们首先简单介绍谁是托洛斯基，什么是托洛斯基派，然后再讨论在美国做一个托派是什么意思？
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Because as a Trotskyist, you're a revolutionary Marxist, you're committed to the overthrow of capitalism, but you are also opposed to the main most powerful left-wing movement. You are viciously opposed to the Communist parties, the official Communist parties, which tended to be much, much, much more powerful.
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但是与此同时，你又和当时左翼阵营中最强大的最主流的力量势不两立，就是这个苏联官方共产党受到莫斯科领导的各国组织都和你势不两立，这就意味着脱派不仅在右边有敌人，他们在左边同样有敌人，而且往往是更强大的敌人，左边的敌人更强大。
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So it is a position that is inherently a minority position, an unpopular position and a very radical position. And Trotskyist groups always are engaging with things in Marxist terms.
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因此，托洛斯基主义从一开始就注定是一个少数派立场，一个在多方向上都被排斥的立场。因此，他具有一种高度的激进性和紧张感。
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So people who come through the Trotskyist tradition come out of this very ideological world where politics is always analyzed in terms of classes, in terms of different class fractions, and also in terms of the possibilities for revolution. Because Trotskyism is this minority creed, it is based on trying to look around for what opportunities there might be, what are the new tensions, what are the new divisions.
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托洛斯基主义者在理解世界的时候，总是借助马克思主义分析框架。在他们的视野中，政治不以国家制度或者是个人来展开，政治总是以阶级的内部分化以及革命的可能性来展开。
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Because Trotskyism is this minority creed, it is based on trying to look around for what opportunities there might be, what are the new tensions, what are the new divisions. It is an activist Marxist creed that sits in opposition to most big established organizations on the left in whatever country it's dealing with in and is trying to combine theory and practice all the time.
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由于他们本身是少数派，因此这种理论不是静态的，而是带着持续的警觉，他们不断的必须要去追问机会在哪里、裂缝在哪里，现存秩序中是否出现了新的张力，是否存在，可以被我这个托派放大的矛盾，因此这是一种带有强烈行动主义色彩的马克思主义，
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It is an activist Marxist creed that sits in opposition to most big established organizations on the left in whatever country it's dealing with in and is trying to combine theory and practice all the time. Marxist theory for understanding politics, but also looking for opportunities to make headway to ferment revolution, to engage in some kind of activism.
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无论身处哪个国家，托洛斯基主义者总是和那些庞大而稳定的左翼组织，就是党组织他和那个党组织保持对立，同时托派不断试图把自己的理论转化成实践，他们介入工人运动，试图推动革命。
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And I think it comes out of that kind of oppositionist mindset, which is that whereas people who go into the mainstream Communist Party, to some extent, are willing to accept this central line, they're willing to ignore their own kind of doubts and fears about what the Soviet Union or the Communist Party may really be like, those who go into Trotskism are taking this critical attitude. And to be a Trotskist is to care intensely about often from the outside, very kind of technical seeming debates about the class nature of the Soviet Union or about the precisely appropriate revolutionary strategy in any given political situation, which means that Trotskism movements are shaped by cultures of very intense internal debate, but also of regular splits. And this can actually make it quite difficult to trace the history, because so often you're dealing with parties that merge and split and merge and split and different factions and group schools all maneuvering against each other within this very small world of Trotskism.
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在20世纪，作为一个托洛斯基主义者，意味着在西方，不管是在西方还是在苏联，意味着你会对一些在外人看来已经技术化的问题，投入巨大的精力，你会去质疑那些不应该被质疑的问题。比如说苏联是一个什么性质的国家？苏联是公认国家还是已经变成了一个新的剥削制度。在具体的政治局势中，应该采取怎样的正确革命策略？结果就是导致脱派的内部辩论往往异常激烈，而这种激烈辩论又不断导致组织分裂。然后我们就看到一个非常典型的历史现象，就欢迎大家去回顾我。
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So one of the people we're going to talk about today, James Burnham, who's a fascinating and very significant figure in 20th century thought. He does come out of that world 1930s American Trotskism.
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那我们现在就扯出一个具体的案例，一个最典型、最著名的案例。美国著名的知识分子James Burnham詹姆斯伯纳姆，他出身富裕阶层，早年受过严格的哲学训练，
来源片段
And he came to Trotskism, having originally been skeptical of Marxism, partly through the influence of one of his colleagues, Sidney Hook, and partly through travelling around America and witnessing the poverty of great depression era America. And he comes into Trotskism and immediately throws himself into this acrimonious debating culture, constantly writing critiques of other people's versions of Marxism, always trying to defend his particular approach to Trotskist politics.
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党内部伯纳姆一方面受到了西德尼、胡克等人的影响，一方面也是因为他在大萧条时期就20年代亲眼目睹美国社会的贫困。在这个阶段，他开始完全认同托洛斯基主义的核心立场，反对资本主义，反对斯大林主义强调革命的国际性批判。
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Now Trotsky's line is that the Soviet Union is still a worker's state, but it's a deformed worker's state. It's one in which bad leadership is leading it astray.
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直接导火索是围绕着苏联究竟是一个什么性质的国家的理论争论，按照托洛斯基的判断，苏联是一个退化的工人，国家问题在于苏联的问题在于官僚领导偏差。
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Now Burnham increasingly comes to doubt this. He begins to see the bureaucratic leadership of the Soviet Union as not just people at the top of a good society making bad decisions, but as representatives of a new kind of state and society.
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他不再认为问题是领导错误，而是提出了一个更加根本的判断。伯纳姆认为，苏联已经发生了结构性变迁，他不再属于社会主义变形，而是一种全新的社会形态。
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And in 1940, he eventually breaks with the Trotskyist movement over this question and also a more sort of esoteric philosophical debate over the nature of dialectical materialism. So it's this classic Trotskyist split.
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到了1940年前后，这个断裂到达顶点，伯纳姆不仅在苏联性质问题上和托派决裂。与此同时，在更深层的哲学思考层面。
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This fundamentally changes the Marxist story. And he begins to tell this new story in his 1941 book, The Managerial Revolution, What is Happening in the World Today.
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比如说，对于辩证唯物主义的态度，他和马克思主义传统开始分道扬镳1941年伯纳姆出版了他最具影响力的著作《管理革命》The Managerial Revolution这本书标志着伯纳姆思想的彻底转型。在这本书中，这本书在西方当代思想学界非常有名。
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And one thing that we begin to see in Burnham's thoughts in this period that really continues is he becomes very skeptical of ideology.
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在这本书中，我们观察到伯纳姆思想中的一个关键，转向他对意识形态产生了深刻的不信任他，不相信政治话语，
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来源片段
What's happened instead is that a new managerial class of bureaucrats and technocrats have taken over the state. And what Burnham crucially does in The Managerial Revolution is he takes this analysis of the Soviet Union and he begins to apply it to other countries. So he argues that Nazi Germany is in an example of the same phenomenon. It's a state in which capitalism has been replaced by the rule of a new class of bureaucrats and managers. And he also begins to argue that this is what's happening in the United States. This is what the new deal is. FDR's new deal is replacing capitalism with the rule of bureaucrats and managers in the form of new deal agencies that are springing up in the US.
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他认为，苏联问题不是领导人犯错，而是苏联社会结构已经发生质的改变。统治苏联的不再是工人阶级，而是一个由官僚和技术管理者构成的新型统治集团。这种结构不是苏联独有伯纳姆说，纳粹德国和新政的美国，就小罗斯福的美国也在朝着类似方向发展。于是，在他那个书《管理革命》中，他判断现代世界正在进入管理阶级统治的时代，资本主义曾经的所有者正在退场，真正掌权的是那些掌握行政组织、技术和国家机器的人。
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But he does seem to have an idea in the managerial revolution that there could be some kind of opposition and that in America, there is more scope for forces other than the technocrats and managers that could potentially, in some way, temper their rule. Another Marxist perspective of this time that came to a similar but different set of conclusions about what connects Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, FDR's New Deal America, was the thought of the Frankfurt School. And there are overlaps as well as very significant differences between these two outlooks. But Burnham wasn't the only person who started to wonder whether you were seeing a convergence of political types across these large industrial and soon to be at war societies having to manage huge labour forces in the aftermath of the Great Depression.
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于是，在他那个书《管理革命》中，他判断现代世界正在进入管理阶级统治的时代，资本主义曾经的所有者正在退场，真正掌权的是那些掌握行政组织、技术和国家机器的人。在他看来，苏联、纳粹、德国和新政时期的美国口头上，意识形态不同，但是在国家对社会的统合、对劳动力的大规模管理。对于经济生活的行政化控制上已经显露出深层的共同性。法兰克福学派同样注意到了苏联纳粹、德国和新政美国的共同性，但是他们的解释路径和伯纳姆并不相同OK我们现在短暂进入一个法兰克福学派小课堂。
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It is authoritarianism. And for people like Horkheimer or Dorneau, then Markuza, the way out of this new authoritarianism, which is, in a sense, the late stage of capitalism, is a sort of emancipatory philosophy with Markuza.
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对于法兰克福学派的领头羊、霍克海默、阿多诺以及后来的马尔库塞而言，把这三个政体连接起来的共同点，不是一个新兴的管理阶级，而是一种更深层的现代威权主义逻辑。
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Burnham's view is power can constrain power, and you can have some system in which there is a level of circulation of elites that prevents any one group from permanently exercising a tyranny. So it's a view that there's a way out, but it's not really a way forward.
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现存秩序之外，对于伯纳姆来说，不可能有解放的可能性，就不可能有一个乌托邦。既然现代国家都在走向管理化，那么政治能做的不可能是革命性超越，政治不能带来超越性，只能够设法尽可能的限制某些集团的权力，
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The way you describe it there makes it sound like this is a clear repudiation of Marxism in contrast, say, to the Frankfurt School, who remained nominally at least Marxist. I mean, not just nominally, actually, they remain Marxist.
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对于法兰克福学派来说，他们把这种解放的可能性转入哲学，转入文化批判，转入马尔库塞所谓的这种感性解放，对吧？就换句话说，法兰克福学派没有放弃马克思主义最核心的规范维度。
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So there's a, I think, a lot of overlap between Burnham and Neoconservatism, but I would say he ends up simply as a conservative, and the best embodiment of this is that he is one of the co-founders with William Buckley of National Review, which is the straightforwardly conservative outlet, as distinguished from Neoconservative outlets that emerge some years later. So I would say Burnham ends up as a conservative, but a conservative whose ideas and whose trajectory very much influence later Neoconservatives.
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但是他是一个保守主义思想家，不能来，不能说他是严格意义上的新保。但是他确实和威廉巴克利就是美国新保守主义运动的开创人，是朋友，也有过密切交集，他们共同参与创办国家评论杂志。
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And I think we can see Burnham's shift to conservatism in the thinkers who dominate his thinking at different points. So in the 1930s, Burnham is primarily interested in Marx and Trotsky.
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伯纳姆的思想演变轨迹其实非常清晰。我再总结一下20世纪30年代，他信奉马克思和托洛斯基。
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So I'm talking here about people like Irving Crystal, Irving Howe, Nathan Glazer and others, many of whom knew each other, Gertrude Himmelfab.
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这些人都是20世纪想当当的美国新保知识分子Irving CrystalOwen HoweNathan GlaserGertrude Himmelfarb这个群体内部都是彼此熟悉的，
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I think it is the template, and I think you can see similar things in terms of the way this anti-Stalinism becomes central to their politics, and that turns them into a particular kind of Cold Warrior, but also the way in which both cases, this analysis of Stalinism and the problems of Stalinism ends up shaping their views of domestic politics. And I think possibly the most important thing about Burnham is not him as a template, but him as someone who provided, I think, a kind of key intellectual tool that later neoconservatives use, which is this idea of the new class of managers, and that is a central way of understanding politics.
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更重要的是，对于斯大林主义弊端的分析，不仅塑造了他们国际政治立场，也深刻影响了他们对于美国内政的理解，在新保守主义的发展过程中，这个新管理阶级的概念被转化成了新阶级理论。
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They think that in a managerial society, actually one of the things that you get is a hollowing out of values, a hollowing out of culture, not just in the public sector, but eventually one of the obsessions becomes in universities too.
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他们认为，在管理主义现代社会中，价值体系正在逐渐空心化、空心化首先出现在公共部门，然后扩展到大学校园，
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I mean, we're on a journey here which is going to end up in the cultural wars, which is not there yet in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
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可以说，在20世纪50到70年代之间，美国社会正在经历一场没有完全显形的文化冲突。
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But what later generations of neoconservatives do is they start applying this to the cultural war and they start explaining the cultural conflict in class terms and seeing the cultural conflict as more important than any kind of economic dimension to it. Can you find the origins of that outlook in their Trotskyism in the sense that one of the questions about all of these political conversions is, do these conversions reflect the place where the people started out? With people like Crystal or Howe, do you think you can trace in where they end up, where they started? I think you can and I think it's the desire to explain a cultural conflict that they're interested in in class terms.
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可以说，在20世纪50到70年代之间，美国社会正在经历一场没有完全显形的文化冲突。这个时候的星宝说，主义者曾经把他们在脱派，他们作为脱洛斯基主义者，用来分析经济结构的阶级概念，转而用于理解文化领域里面的冲突和对立。他们形成的判断是文化冲突的重要性，超过了经济冲突本身。这个当然这个思维方式当然和他们早期这群星宝都是托洛斯基主义者的经历密切相关。在自己托洛斯基思想遗产的影响下，他们倾向于从阶级分析的角度去解读文化现象。
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And in his writings there, you can find very sympathetic accounts of books by socialists, but also of conservatives, as long as they're part of this sort of democratic, liberal mainstream. And where the Neoconservatives start to go more right-wing is when they start critiquing what they see as the attacks on this from the New Left, a New Left that they see as very sympathetic to communism. And where they end up drawing the divide, I think, is between ordinary Americans who are invested in this American society and a new class that has a cultural opposition to mainstream American society.
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他们自己在20世纪50年代逐步融入了主流的反共自由主义阵营，并且开始对美国社会形成高度认同，也正是在这个基础之上，这群曾经是托派的新保开始批判。新左派。在他们看来，新左派挑战了美国主流价值观，并且对共产主义表示出过度同情。因此，美国的新保守主义者逐渐划清了一条新的界线，一边是认同美国社会的普通民众。另外一边是对美国文化基础保持批判态度的新阶级，它是一个文化阶级，他们开始把批判矛头指向那些位于资本主义体系之外的群体，大学媒体、公共部门、非政府组织中的知识经营。
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The problem, however, is that there is a class of people who are outside of corporate capitalism, who are in the public sector, who are in the universities, who are in non-government organizations, who are in the media. And these people have a different set of values and a set of values that threatens to undermine the American society that Christor has come to accept and celebrate.
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大学媒体、公共部门、非政府组织中的知识经营。这些精英群体被认为奉行一套不同于美国主流社会的价值体系，并且对美国社会的稳定构成了威胁。
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So universities, the media, government agencies were actually being infiltrated from within by these new left cultural relativists.
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他们的批判主要目标变成了大学媒体和政府机构，受到了新左派文化精英的渗透和控制。
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But he's worried that in the 1960s, liberals are taking things too far and that the new welfare programs pushed by this new class, who have a particular set of outlooks based on the kind of institutions they come through, are doing programs that aren't going to work, that are going to create problems, and that are ultimately going to undermine society. So that set of arguments then introduces a new category as well as class, which is race.
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在这一群新的新保守主义者看来，由新阶级主导的福利政策源自一套脱离社会的脱离现实的社会观结果不仅无法解决问题，反而会制造新的社会困境动摇。
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It turned on the question of abortion. And abortion is the ultimate value question in American politics.
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其中一个关键节点是堕胎权争议。因为在美国政治中到了70年代堕胎权这个议题成为了价值观冲突的集中象征。
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Because I think the way I would understand neo-conservative politics is you have a kind of defensive attitude towards the America of the 1950s. You support sort of bourgeois American values.
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对于新保守主义者而言，他们始终用一种防御性的姿态，捍卫20世纪50年代的美国社会，在他们看来，这是一个秩序尚存，反共立场，坚定社会激励尚未被大规模的政治激进主义撕裂的美国。
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You like the setup, you're very anti-communist. And you see this challenged by the great society, which threatens to undermine the social fabric and by the new left to which these people had a real, I think aversion and even disgust.
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这是一个秩序尚存，反共立场，坚定社会激励尚未被大规模的政治激进主义撕裂的美国。然而，在他们眼中，约翰逊总统的伟大社会计划正在腐蚀这个社会秩序，挥着小红书的新左派，在大学校园里挥着小红书的新左派，
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He has put together this new class coalition that has replaced the traditional democratic coalition they tended to like, one made up of established minority groups, trade unions, the sort of thing they would have been familiar with in New York politics, Jewish groups, Catholic groups, trade unions, and has replaced it with this sort of new class coalition. And for them, that's very alienating and seems to symbolize what they want to resist within liberalism.
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文化精英、新左派活动家以及身份政治联盟构成的政治力量。对于这些前托洛斯基派的知识分子而言，这个联盟让他们产生了强烈的疏离感，因为它恰恰集中体现了他们作为托派厌恶的自由主义新形态。
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So Irving Kristol in 1972 votes for Nixon.
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在这个背景下，曾经的托派Irvin Crystal他在1972年把选票投给了共和党的尼克松，
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And that is a real moment in terms of his move to the right and the whole set of people around him becoming neo-conservatives rather than simply more centrist liberals.
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自此以后，他和他周围许多的人不再是立场偏中间的自由主义者，而是明确的向右派向新保守主义靠拢。
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I think you often get this idea that you can frame the war in Iraq as a kind of ideological crusade based on a utopian idea of promoting democracy that you can tie back to Trotskyism. I do think that somewhat struggles because of the different generations of neo-conservatism.
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后面我们常常把新保守主义和军事干预强硬外交，乃至于伊拉克战争联系在一起，表面上来说，这似乎构成了一条从托洛斯基主义革命输出、国际主义革命理念，到新保守主义、民主输出的直接谱系，他们相信历史使命，他们相信武力可以打破旧秩序，
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The first is a commitment to anti-authoritarianism as a central political value, whereas people on the Stalinist left are willing to defend authoritarian regimes if they're geopolitically sympathetic to them, if they're anti-American or if they have pretenses of being left wing. A Trotskyist is going to be very committed to anti-authoritarianism.
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因为第一代出身于托洛斯基主义的新保守主义者，他们的更多关切，其实集中于国内政治，他们关心的是美国福利国家的边界。美国文化激进主义的崛起，美国传统社会秩序的瓦解，以及这个新左派对于美国制度的侵蚀，他们在外交上，当然也是鹰派并且强烈反苏联的，但是他并不必然主张后面的那种以大规模军事行动输出民主的意识形态斗争。
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They were able to, they succeeded in, in stymieing so much of his agenda and creating new, um, you know, grassroots political movements during his, um, presidency. So I think it, it makes sense to, to distinguish between the things that, one of the things that we mentioned in the opening, which is, um, this kind of Burkean conservative concept, the concept of conservatism that you find in classical conservatism versus what was born in the 20th century as movement conservatism. Mm-hmm.
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因此，他们反对自由主义的渐进改革，他们主张通过革命性变革来实现社会主义等。一会。我说到后面的时候，也会帮助大家小心的对比一下脱派和20世纪。
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Um, so Sam mentioned that in 1941, Burnham published the Managero Revolution in 1943, he published a book called the Machiavellians. Yeah.
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比如说，对于辩证唯物主义的态度，他和马克思主义传统开始分道扬镳1941年伯纳姆出版了他最具影响力的著作《管理革命》The Managerial Revolution这本书标志着伯纳姆思想的彻底转型。
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They all followed Machiavelli in divorcing ethics from knowledge, taking human nature as it is, rejecting all monistic and metaphysical theories of history and investigating political behavior in the anti-formal mode of refusing to accept at face value what men say, think, or write. In their works, Burnham found all the intellectual ammunition he needed to wage his two-front war against socialism and democracy. Mm-hmm. Uh, one by one, they come forward with their wisdom. Mosca, with his theory of the ruling class as an organized minority, his rejection of representative government as an empty fiction, and his empirical outline of the permanent stratification of society. And it goes on from there. I won't read it at length, but I just thought that was an interesting tie-in that, that Burnham was essentially a student of these thinkers who represented the futility thesis. Yeah.
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无论在资本主义国家，法西斯国家还是苏联，他说，都在出现一种新的统治阶级，叫做管理人阶级Managers这些管理人不拥有生产资料的法律所有权。但是他们掌握着实际控制权，从而形成了一种不同于传统资本主义和社会主义的新型社会结构。在这本书中，我们观察到伯纳姆思想中的一个关键，转向他对意识形态产生了深刻的不信任他，不相信政治话语，能够揭示政治的本质。他转而分析隐藏在话语背后的权力结构。这种怀疑延续了马克思主义里面的揭示性方法。但是他剥离了马克思的解放性目标。
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I won't read it at length, but I just thought that was an interesting tie-in that, that Burnham was essentially a student of these thinkers who represented the futility thesis. Yeah. And you can hear in Burnham and in Burnham's engagement with those Italian thinkers and with Machiavelli, um, how a Trotskyist becomes a movement conservative, which is something that we're going to talk about possibly more in a future episode.
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所以说我可以说这两本书之后，伯纳姆就已经非常明显的背离了，或者说和马克思主义和托洛斯主义决裂了。那我们在这里对比一下伯纳姆和当时另外一种在知识分子中相当受欢迎的马克思主义思潮。
S2：4 个窗口回退
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They all kind of look to as a, he called himself or other people called him a Tory anarchist. Right. And it's a great term. He taught, um, he's very close with Frank Chodorov too. Right. Right. Who, um, was also sort of proto libertarian thinker, but we can, um, I think we should move up to McCarthy. Right. Um, we mentioned that Buckley wrote this book in 1954 called McCarthy and his enemies. He wrote it with Brent Bozell. And my impression is that, and I think Tannenhaus says this, that it was less interested in with, as with McCarthy, the man, than with McCarthyism, the movement. Right. Um, and trying to establish what, what McCarthyism consisted of as a movement ideology. Right. And that's where, um, you get the, the influence of Kendall.
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但是美国的新保守主义运动有一个明确开端，它是在1950年代开始的。我们今天讨论的这个伯纳姆，他要早于真正的新保守主义运动。我们可以说伯纳姆深刻的影响了50年代，就后来的新保守主义。但是他是一个保守主义思想家，不能来，不能说他是严格意义上的新保。但是他确实和威廉巴克利就是美国新保守主义运动的开创人，是朋友，也有过密切交集，他们共同参与创办国家评论杂志。
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But, but Chambers was that original cautionary voice. Yeah. And I think that one thing we should acknowledge is that in the early days of movement conservatism, the question of, of electoral politics and how it would fit in with their project was not always settled in particular, whether the Republican party was always going to be the vessel for movement conservatism because they were so dissatisfied with, um, the sort of liberal Republicans or non-ideological Republicans that kept getting nominated or were, were, were seen as sort of these figures who are going to, who are going to basically compromise with the new deal establishment like Eisenhower. Um, which like the John, John Birchers thought he was a communist. Yeah. Right.
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然后到了20世纪60年代，这个思想也进一步转化为对于美国政府政策的批判，以克里斯托尔 尔文克里斯特为代表的新保守主义者对LBJ 林登 B. Johnson就约翰逊总统推行的伟大社会计划提出了严厉质疑。OK 有关这个质疑，我在美国左派是不是铁板一块，那些播客里面已经更加详细的分析。过了简单来说，就到了这个时间段，他们的立场也变了，对吧？他们在这里反对的不再是小罗斯福的新政，而是60年代的自由主义改革。他们认为，政府改革已经走向过度扩张。在这一群新的新保守主义者看来，由新阶级主导的福利政策源自一套脱离社会的脱离现实的社会观结果不仅无法解决问题，
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And I think that one thing we should acknowledge is that in the early days of movement conservatism, the question of, of electoral politics and how it would fit in with their project was not always settled in particular, whether the Republican party was always going to be the vessel for movement conservatism because they were so dissatisfied with, um, the sort of liberal Republicans or non-ideological Republicans that kept getting nominated or were, were, were seen as sort of these figures who are going to, who are going to basically compromise with the new deal establishment like Eisenhower. Um, which like the John, John Birchers thought he was a communist. Yeah. Right. You know, so in the world in which like Buckley and company were operating, you know, we, you might think, Oh, what was so bad about Eisenhower? But people, they felt that they were kind of in competition with for readers, for, for, for ideas, for kind of leadership of some, this conservative impulse, uh, they, they thought, they thought Eisenhower was just terrible.
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他们从脱派转向星宝的这群知识分子。他们原来属于民主党的这群知识分子，之所以最终走向共和党，不只是因为他们个人变了，而是因为民主党本身已经不再是他们熟悉的那个民主党，对于新保守主义者而言，他们始终用一种防御性的姿态，捍卫20世纪50年代的美国社会，在他们看来，这是一个秩序尚存，反共立场，坚定社会激励尚未被大规模的政治激进主义撕裂的美国。
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And, or at least they controlled enough of it that from that point onward, you know, there's a reason Richard Nixon won the nomination in 1968 and not George Romney or John Lindsay or Nelson Rockefeller or these kinds of prototypical liberal Republicans. Right. Even though they lost, they learned a lot about how to build political power. The fact that you actually have to go out and organize, if you have a, if you have a, um, a set of like movement goals, you have to find the constituency to build the constituency for achieving those goals. You know, Buckley founds the young Americans for freedom a few years after that, which is sort of like the right wing response to that.
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在这个背景下，曾经的托派Irvin Crystal他在1972年把选票投给了共和党的尼克松，这是一个美国政治上象征性的转折点。自此以后，他和他周围许多的人不再是立场偏中间的自由主义者，而是明确的向右派向新保守主义靠拢。对于这些长期高度重视权利和现实政治结构的人来说，这不仅仅是观念之争，而是关于我们要组建什么样的联盟才能够重新赢得统治权。到了70年代，新保新保守主义者。
S3：2 个窗口回退
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I think both the progressives and the conservatives are under a delusion, just as you say, that we don't need to take measures to distinguish a tyrannous majority from a reasonable one. But we do. And a lot of our politics is about that difference when you come down to it. So why do you think that the American conservative movement, which was always different from European right wing and especially European far right wing movements because of its commitment to liberalism, is now starting to doubt that commitment, both in the intellectual sphere by people like Patrick Deneen, but also, I would argue, and I'm intrigued to hear whether you agree, in the political sphere by people like Donald Trump. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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因此，他们反对自由主义的渐进改革，他们主张通过革命性变革来实现社会主义等。一会。我说到后面的时候，也会帮助大家小心的对比一下脱派和20世纪。另外一个在知识分子中特别流行的马克思主义立场，法兰克福学派之间的相似性和区别。不管怎么样，我们先在这里退一步，说，脱派在我看来可以说是所有西方能够存在的20世纪政治立场中对抗性最强的一种。因为你作为一个当时的脱派，你同时处在两个抵对关系之中。
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Do you think that its current divergence from, or if you see Trump as a demagogue, indifference towards philosophical liberalism will become permanent? Or is it likely that the Republican Party will reaffirm a commitment to political liberalism? I don't know. I'm not a predictor, and these are chancy things. All I can say is that they're a basis for both. For both a continuation of Trumpism, if that is an ism, Trumpish behavior, and for putting it aside or putting it to sleep.
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并且接受了他他要求的是以权治权、制衡权力以获得自由。而法兰克福学派则把这种现实理解成是现代统治的全面深化。他坚持继续追问解放的可能性。OK让我们离开那个法兰克福学派。我认为如果我们要去界定这个詹姆斯伯纳姆的政治规划，那么更为恰当的是把它说成一个保守主义者，而不是新保，是新保守主义者。因为新保守主义这个词是随着论述语境的不同，具有不同内涵的。