最高相似度示例 · 非人工确认结果
目标片段这不是随便的撒谎。
来源片段It's not random lying, right.
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S1：5 个窗口回退
来源片段
He literally translates his writings, including critique of Israel in the West and anti imperialism and anti Zionism and all that, into Farsi, into Persian, and injects these deep ideas that are totally alien. And that's, by the way, in the article, so just, you should still read it. There's a lot more in it. Can you tell us that story? How does Khomeini lead the Shia from a place where this is not at all what they're talking about? It's not part of their story, into just adopting a fundamentally Sunni world of ideas into Shiaism. So before I dive into this, let me just say this. It is very important to understand the difference between the Shia, the Arab Shia of Iraq and Lebanon and everywhere else, and the Shia of Iran.
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当然，伊斯兰革命之后的伊朗意味着我们要穿越很多。对于中国听众，其实对于西方听众，也是极其不熟悉的历史，其中不仅仅包括了伊斯兰教的历史。什叶派和逊尼派伊斯兰教的区别，当然也包括了阿拉伯人和波斯人的区别，包括一整个庞大的波斯历史。在开始之前，我想要讨论一个方法上的观察。我觉得中国学者去讨论任何政治相关的话题的时候，总体来说一个最严重的问题是，他们对于他们要研究和讨论的对象没有体感。
来源片段
And you guys were converts from non Islam, you know, your Iranian Persian, non Arab, who converted to our religion. So we get to say how this religion looks like and how the beliefs of this religion look like. I know that in Islamic discourse, the question of Arabic is a holy language, because that's the language of the Quran and of the divine revelation is very significant is very dramatic. It's a very big part, you need to learn Arabic in Malaysia, if you want to study the Quran itself and the poetry of the Quran is deemed to be one of the proofs of its of its divinity, because it's considered right, this perfect Arabic.
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因为阿拉伯语本身就是伊斯兰教的语言，它是真主的语言。好的，接下来我们再来解释迅尼派穆斯林和什叶派穆斯林的区别。穆斯林就是一个信仰伊斯兰教的信徒。我想在这里再次强调的是，伊斯兰教是一个起源于真主。上帝向先知穆罕默德用阿拉伯语传话，然后传出了一整本古兰经这样的一个宗教。对于波斯人来说，伊斯兰教是一个外来宗教。所以说我们现在要暂时忘记我刚才基里咕鲁讨论的所有跟波斯人有关的东西。
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Now, I don't want to go into the details of this because the Fatimids in not in Africa were sort of Shia, but in general, in the Levant, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and the Gulf, the Shia were mostly the minority, they were not in charge. And after their 12th Imam went into occultation, that's what the Shia believe their community became leaderless. And to make up for this deficiency, the clerics decided, Okay, the clerics will run the community, but not in any central way. So each cleric will guide the believers who follow him on ways of belief, and only in ways of belief. So this has nothing political to it. And when the cleric dies, you pick another one.
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他的这个侯赛因在卡尔巴拉迅难了，然后第二第十二位伊玛姆引顿了，这个最终会降临。按照什叶派的信仰，最终这个第十二位的伊玛姆进入引顿之后，他们就没有了领袖。什叶派成为了没有政治领袖的群体，这个非常重要。为了弥补这种领袖，教士们决定就是为了弥补他们，没有办法去组织自我组织，没有真正政治领袖的这个事实。什叶派的教士们决定，我们由教士来管理社群。但是我要继续强调，他们没有一种中央集权的管理模式在什叶派里面，每一位教士只能够引导跟随他的信徒在信仰上的事物仅限于信仰和政治无关。
来源片段
And after their 12th Imam went into occultation, that's what the Shia believe their community became leaderless. And to make up for this deficiency, the clerics decided, Okay, the clerics will run the community, but not in any central way. So each cleric will guide the believers who follow him on ways of belief, and only in ways of belief. So this has nothing political to it. And when the cleric dies, you pick another one. And this is the Moushtahid, this guy is called in Arabic the Moushtahid, you know, the very knowledgeable scholar. And, and this institution is called Taklit, you know, you emulate one of them.
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为了弥补这种领袖，教士们决定就是为了弥补他们，没有办法去组织自我组织，没有真正政治领袖的这个事实。什叶派的教士们决定，我们由教士来管理社群。但是我要继续强调，他们没有一种中央集权的管理模式在什叶派里面，每一位教士只能够引导跟随他的信徒在信仰上的事物仅限于信仰和政治无关。等到这个教士去世了，人们再选另外一位，对吧？这一切都非常重要，因为这一切都是当今的伊朗政权需要改变的地方，对吧？
来源片段
And when the cleric dies, you pick another one. And this is the Moushtahid, this guy is called in Arabic the Moushtahid, you know, the very knowledgeable scholar. And, and this institution is called Taklit, you know, you emulate one of them. So this is Shia is for over 1000 years. The Shia just, you know, assimilating into the Sunni government, whoever is in charge, but they have their own thing. Now, when the huge difference between the Arab Shia and the Iranian Shia is that when Iran started switching to Shia is after 1500.
目标片段
这一切都非常重要，因为这一切都是当今的伊朗政权需要改变的地方，对吧？这种人叫做Mushtahit,就是大概的意思，就是极其有学问的学者。而这种制度被称作Taklit是效法其中的一位学者，你要去模仿他的Taklit,就是模仿这个学者的意思。这种效仿的制度在什叶派传统中被延续了一千多年。所以说什叶派中的什么迅难神学什么尹顿，他强调的是什么？历史上的迫害和迅难，再加上另外一个残酷的现实。
来源片段
Now, when the huge difference between the Arab Shia and the Iranian Shia is that when Iran started switching to Shia is after 1500. In Iran, the Shia are the majority.
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我为什么要强调阿拉伯什叶派和伊朗什叶派之间的区别，这实际上是一个政治态度上的重大区别。当伊朗在1500年之后开始拥抱什叶派。
来源片段
In Iran, the Shia are the majority. So they they have a different way of handling government and thinking of government.
目标片段
那就是他们成为了多数派。这意味着在伊朗什叶派处理政府思考政权的方式，是跟他这个什叶派在其他伊斯兰世界中不一样的。
来源片段
And mind you, the Shia of Iran were locked in a rivalry with the Sunnis of Istanbul, the Turks, the Ottoman Turks. So you have two empires, one of them Sunni, one of them Shia fighting.
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比如说在历史上这个伊朗帝国和伊斯坦布尔就是奥斯曼的土耳其。前者的国教是什叶派伊斯兰，后者的国教是逊尼派伊斯兰，他们在历史上陷入了长期对抗。
来源片段
So you have two empires, one of them Sunni, one of them Shia fighting.
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我们看到的是两个帝国的交战，是一个逊尼派穆斯林帝国和一个什叶派穆斯林帝国的交战。
来源片段
You know, so you do things that you, for the Shia, Takia for the Shia is that you only not show your actual belief if your life is threatened, like on the spot.
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这就是Takiya当你的生命受到威胁的时候，你可以不表露自己真实的信仰，你可以伪装自己实业派。
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So the main division after 1798 when Napoleon showed an Egypt.
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在1798年拿破仑打进埃及的时候，拿破仑给埃及世界带来的震撼，无异于当年八国联军打进中国，
S1：3 个窗口回退
来源片段
Rule of the cleric. You mentioned this in the article where this this ideology of the rule of the cleric Shia clerics came to Khomeini and said to him, what do you mean you're ruling with Shia religious rule? You're not the Mahdi, what do you think you are? That's I mean, that's what you're trying to say to us. And he says, no, God forbid, God forbid, I'm at the deputy. I'm the deputy on this earth until such time as he comes. But until then, we're going to pave the way by me being the supreme leader and the religious leader at the same time.
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当时的什叶派教士去找霍梅尼，对他说，你说要用什叶派宗教来统治，可是你又不是救世主，你又不是马提，你以为你是谁？你凭什么来统治？霍梅尼说，老子是救世主的代理人，我是救世主，在人间的代理人，直到救世主降临。在他之前，我同时担任最高领袖和宗教领袖来为救世主的道来铺路。这是当今伊朗政权意识形态的创行。在这个什叶派伊斯兰教之上的创行。这个创新是今天生活在伊朗之外的。
来源片段
That's I mean, that's what you're trying to say to us. And he says, no, God forbid, God forbid, I'm at the deputy. I'm the deputy on this earth until such time as he comes. But until then, we're going to pave the way by me being the supreme leader and the religious leader at the same time. And that's the ideology of the Iranian regime, which is just a innovation in Shia Islam. I want to get into where Israel comes into the picture. When the Muslim Brotherhood or it begins before the Muslim Brotherhood, it begins in Rida, who's the first seriously theologian of this school of this going back school of Sunni Islam in that period to to think seriously about Zionism and what it means.
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霍梅尼说，老子是救世主的代理人，我是救世主，在人间的代理人，直到救世主降临。在他之前，我同时担任最高领袖和宗教领袖来为救世主的道来铺路。这是当今伊朗政权意识形态的创行。在这个什叶派伊斯兰教之上的创行。这个创新是今天生活在伊朗之外的。你也可以说伊朗之内也是了，但是那些人没有选择嘛，对吧？就是伊朗之外的什叶派穆斯林不会把这个创新当作自己信仰教义的一部分。什叶派从来没有建立过政府，从来没有渴望过政府，他们是在等待救世主的道林。
来源片段
And it's one thing to be ruled by the British Empire. It's a whole nother thing for Islam to be pushed back by the by the Jews. And so there's this sense that the Jews take pride of place in the ideology of the Muslim brothers and of in general this sort of all these different kinds of Salafist ideas, because they're weak, because they're weak. What's what's important about them is that they are the weakest thing that ever pushed Islam back. And therefore they are the test of Islam's capacity to return and the signal of Islam's potential return when Islam overcomes this weakest thing that ever pushed it back.
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作为一个少数派被迫害的一个少数宗教信仰的关怀。他是逊尼派这个主流伊斯兰思想家逊尼派里面的伊斯兰思想家的核心问题。比如说为什么伊斯兰会衰弱？为什么法国人和英国人可以把阿拉伯世界肢解成殖民帝国？我们穆斯林应该如何回应？唯一的答案就是回到先贤，回到传统，回到虔诚的伊斯兰信仰，才能够让真主的荣光洒遍大地？就是这个想法，你可以我在这里可以说这个想法在60年前的伊朗什叶派心中是完全陌生的，就是在伊斯兰革命之前的伊朗人什叶派中是完全陌生的。
来源片段
But in Shea's, it's not in Shea's, alakzah is not in Jerusalem. And that's a not an innovation.
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但是这个传统在什叶派穆斯林中并不存在。对于什叶派穆斯林来说，圣殿的地方不是在耶路撒冷。
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There are also holy spots for the Shea of Iraq in Mecca and Medina, you know. And so, okay, but there's nothing in the Levant.
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阿拉伯的麦加和麦迪纳之外，他们教义中那些圣人殉道的地方都是在什么伊拉克在巴格达那边，然后还有一些在伊朗，对吧？
来源片段
And it will now struggle to argue that it is the vanguard of Islam and that Shia are going to accomplish what the Sunni failed to and Islam's on its path back. And all of this kind of Shia version of Muslim Brotherhood ideology will now struggle to pretend like they're really delivering on any of that. And you are of the belief that this is a beautiful, wonderful thing that is a window, first of all, because you don't like dictators and tyrants who hurt people. I kind of got that from things you've written over the years. I've been reading you more than just this op-ed.
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当然这套理论也能很好的和反伊斯兰主义里面强调的西方帝国主义是真正的敌人，现代性是真正的敌人，在批判层面非常契合。当然，批判成功之后，我们要重建的那个东西，这你不用管是完整的。伊斯兰在政治层面，在法律层面，在社会层面全部真正全面，真正实现伊斯兰社会。我想说的是，我希望通过这期播客向大家说明这套这套形态，它并不来自于实业派本身的传统，它是一套全新的发明。它起源于这个穆斯林世界对于现代世界之堕落的反抗，并且说这个反抗的途径不是走向现代化，
S2：11 个窗口回退
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And we have some later Muslim historians and Christian historians as well. But it's fair to say that the field really is really open. So when we, on the basis of this kind of cloud of unknowing, try to figure out what Arabia was like, specifically Western Arabia, because this is a huge area. It's a kind of subcontinent, really. It's not even a peninsula on the eve of Islam. What the sources depict do give us some comfort in that they coincide with the image that we would expect given the usual kind of religious and cultural forms associated with nomadic pastoralism. That is to say, the Arabs were firmly divided into tribal units and sub-tribes.
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不管这个国家的法律允不允许它的习俗，好像不太允许这些都是你通过体感才能够察觉到的东西。接下来我想说的是，正是这些体感给予了我一种最明显的波斯人和阿拉伯人的区别。那就是波斯人。相比阿拉伯人来说，总体来说更加开放，在品位和文化上，也更加包容。我上面列举的所有国家都是阿拉伯国家，他们里面住的绝大多数人都是阿拉伯人。阿拉伯人主要分布在阿拉伯半岛以及中东和北非阿拉伯人身上。最大的特点是他们讲阿拉伯语。阿拉伯语在阿拉伯人心中是一门神的语言，神圣的语言。
来源片段
So the fact that that ancient Arabic poetry depicts that image coincides with the kind of Durkha'amyan view of what ancient societies and the Upper Paleolithic probably were like and what surviving primordial peoples in the Australian outback, for instance, are still like tribal, shamanistic, focused very much on nature, strong sense of cross-generational solidarity. We can more or less construct a broad outline picture of what the Arabs were doing before Islam came along. And the phrase you used was before Islam knocked all that for six.
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这种在艺术上给我的体感是波斯人是一个比阿拉伯人要来的更加世俗，更加开放、更加文明的民族在美学上精致的，可以媲美中国文明的民族。它的文化认同不是建立在一个真主的声音，就是阿拉伯语这样的神圣语言之上的波斯人的文化认同，建立在一整个庞大的历史传统之上。通过解释，以上波斯人和阿拉伯人的区别。我希望建立的第一个认知是这个认知在绝大多数1979年逃离伊朗的这些波斯人都会认可的那就是伊朗在历史上绝大多数时间几千年以来，相比于它周边的这些阿拉伯文明都是一个更加世俗化、更加开放、更加高度发达的文明。
来源片段
And there is a school of historians, perhaps even the dominant school at the moment, which likes to see Islam as being more in continuity with Jewish and Christian precedents than with ancient pagan Arabian precedents. In other words, it's the Arabs trading up to the monotheistic narratives and some of the great biblical stories of their neighbors. Because if you like, the image of the rise of Islam is more or less the exact opposite of what we are familiar with, perhaps with the rise of Christianity. Christianity emerges in a monotheistic island in the middle of a pagan world. Whereas Islam emerges in one of the last pagan islands when the rest of the world had really traded up to one of the major axial religions. Arabia is the last holdout for ancient polytheism and tribal life.
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因为阿拉伯语本身就是伊斯兰教的语言，它是真主的语言。好的，接下来我们再来解释迅尼派穆斯林和什叶派穆斯林的区别。穆斯林就是一个信仰伊斯兰教的信徒。我想在这里再次强调的是，伊斯兰教是一个起源于真主。上帝向先知穆罕默德用阿拉伯语传话，然后传出了一整本古兰经这样的一个宗教。对于波斯人来说，伊斯兰教是一个外来宗教。所以说我们现在要暂时忘记我刚才基里咕鲁讨论的所有跟波斯人有关的东西。
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So before we come on to that enigma, that puzzle, which is I want to focus on, you said that this was monotheism in the place that was the holdout against it, the polytheistic holdout, but not a complete holdout in that monotheistic religion had spread, had it not, two parts of Arabia, how at the very beginning, were those relations understood? So as Islam emerged, and by the very beginning, you know, the absolute initial moment, but in the early decades, what was the relationship not just between Islam and its sort of polytheistic environs, but also with the competing monotheisms, particularly Judaism, but Christianity as well, was it accommodating? I mean, it had an explanation for them. It was able to, as it were, accommodate them in that sense. But was it accommodating in a more social or even political sense?
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但是什叶派的阿拉伯人和什叶派的波斯人之间不但无法交流。而且什叶派的阿拉伯人会觉得你们这个皈依了我们这个宗教的人，凭什么现在正在定义什叶派还来教我们做事。我为什么要强调阿拉伯什叶派和伊朗什叶派之间的区别，这实际上是一个政治态度上的重大区别。当伊朗在1500年之后开始拥抱什叶派。伊斯兰的时候，什叶派首次在历史上做出了一个他们在1000多年的历史中都没有体验过的事情，
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Jewish communities often were able to thrive in the Muslim world. So about 90% of Jews in the Middle Ages lived in the Muslim world, not in Christendom. By and large, there wasn't a story of pogroms, there wasn't the blood libel, the idea of Jews collectively responsible for the day aside. None of that would make sense in the Islamic context. And where there was a kind of stereotypical whipping boy in early Arabic literature, it tended not to be the figure of the perfidious Jew, but rather Zoroastrians. They're the ones who become the kind of dark other, the kind of stereotypical figure of perfidy and unbelief. It's very hard to find medieval Muslim polemical works against Judaism, for instance.
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但实际上他们都不是穆斯林，对吧？德鲁兹人和阿拉伯人不是穆斯林。对于他们来说，他们在这一整个中东历史上经常需要假装自己是穆斯林做出一些表面行为，为了不被人给屠杀掉全家，这就是Takiya当你的生命受到威胁的时候，你可以不表露自己真实的信仰，你可以伪装自己实业派。在这点上比起来，他和我刚才列举的这个什么德鲁兹人、阿拉伯人实业派甚至处境更好。因为他们好歹是穆斯林，他们跟逊尼主流逊尼派的主流这个分歧只是关于继承实业派，一直在等待救世主就马里的出现实业派的一整个政治制度，就是为了等待救世主的到来，等到救世主马里到来之后，他们认为自己会取代逊尼派会取代其他所有人，
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They're the ones who become the kind of dark other, the kind of stereotypical figure of perfidy and unbelief. It's very hard to find medieval Muslim polemical works against Judaism, for instance. Why particularly Zoroastrianism? What was the underlying animus there? I think because it was seen as not really monotheistic and quite different. And also, the idea was that it was a highly hierarchical kind of society with an aristocratic and priestly elite which practiced serious religion and left the peasantry to their own devices, which offended egalitarian, if that's the word, sensibilities of the early Muslim conquerors.
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因为我觉得这个是对中国人来说最陌生最难理解的。第二个是我们接下来要短暂讨论的诞生在埃及的全新的激进的意识形态。泛伊斯兰主义它给予了今天伊朗政权的政权合法性，只有吸收了这套泛伊斯兰主义。霍梅尼，才能够把原来的这个实业派伊斯兰教变成一个宗教政权。我们刚才已经说过，实业派在教义中是没有任何理由执政的。OK第三种，马克思主义世界观里面的阶级斗争和反帝国主义叙事。
来源片段
And also, the idea was that it was a highly hierarchical kind of society with an aristocratic and priestly elite which practiced serious religion and left the peasantry to their own devices, which offended egalitarian, if that's the word, sensibilities of the early Muslim conquerors. But it does seem to be the case that there is an absence of medieval Muslim polemic against Judaism as such. There's polemic against Christianity. There's polemic against Zoroastrianism. There's writings about Hinduism and Buddhism because Islam is at the center of the ancient world, so it engages with not just other monotheisms, but extensively with Indian religions as well.
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泛伊斯兰主义它给予了今天伊朗政权的政权合法性，只有吸收了这套泛伊斯兰主义。霍梅尼，才能够把原来的这个实业派伊斯兰教变成一个宗教政权。我们刚才已经说过，实业派在教义中是没有任何理由执政的。OK第三种，马克思主义世界观里面的阶级斗争和反帝国主义叙事。在伊斯兰革命初期，伊斯兰主义者是跟左翼马克思主义游击队共同结成联盟来推翻代表帝国主义和资本主义的巴列维王朝。当然建立了政权之后，实业派的法学家们就迅速的清洗掉了，跟他们一起闹革命的马克思主义者，
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And yet at the beginning, there are clearly ways in which Islam does represent a fundamental break. And I want to see if we can try and characterize what is the upending that happens with the arrival of Islam. So if we do law to start with ideas of law in the monotheistic religions, particularly but more broadly, conceptions of law at the time. So as you said, for nomadic tribal peoples, the idea of law would have been very different if it made sense at all. But in Christianity, in Judaism, there is a clear understanding of law and divine law and revelation and the rest. In what ways is Islamic law is Sharia fundamentally different from the beginning?
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所以说我想说的是，如果你真正了解伊斯兰教义，你也能够理解为什么伊朗现在在做的这些事情和什叶派传统其实是一种背叛，或者说一种创新，起码是一种颠覆，就是他顶着什叶派这个名义在做的事情。实际上在什叶派教义中，你找不到什么东西，我给你举一个更具体的例子，就比如说耶路撒冷，耶路撒冷，对于逊尼派穆斯林和犹太人和基督徒是极其重要的。因为耶路撒冷是他们的圣地，耶路撒冷这个城市为什么要争夺耶路撒冷？
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There is in time, and that could be one of the revolutionary aspects of Islam in that it introduces this very unfamiliar idea of a charismatic world ruler who actually can't legislate and isn't allowed to get involved in the legislative process, unless it's abusive, of course, and sultans sometimes get involved. This, of course, also reminds us, I suppose, of the fact that modern Islamism, Muslim Brotherhood, Jama'at-e-Islami, Al-Qaeda, and so forth, represent by their own acknowledgement radical break with the Islamic past because they do accept the Western model of the nation state, which alone has the right to punish, which alone has the right to enact and enforce laws, but all of that is very new in the Islamic world. Medieval Muslims confronted with something like Hamas would have been completely bewildered by it. Things have moved on. That maybe is one of the most original features of Islamic law, the fact that it is not state law, that is, scholars' law, or ultimately attributed to the divine will.
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阿拉伯的麦加和麦迪纳之外，他们教义中那些圣人殉道的地方都是在什么伊拉克在巴格达那边，然后还有一些在伊朗，对吧？以什叶派的宗教名义，伊朗没有任何理由去插手黎凡特就近东这块地区的政治，它现在的形式准则并不扎根于什叶派宗教，它是扎根于自己本身拥抱的这种以反西方反现代为目的的泛伊斯兰主义现代意识形态。所以最后我想说的是，除了泛伊斯兰主义、霍美尼和哈尔美尼也大量借鉴了马克思主义中，全世界受压迫者都要联合起来，
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This, of course, also reminds us, I suppose, of the fact that modern Islamism, Muslim Brotherhood, Jama'at-e-Islami, Al-Qaeda, and so forth, represent by their own acknowledgement radical break with the Islamic past because they do accept the Western model of the nation state, which alone has the right to punish, which alone has the right to enact and enforce laws, but all of that is very new in the Islamic world. Medieval Muslims confronted with something like Hamas would have been completely bewildered by it. Things have moved on. That maybe is one of the most original features of Islamic law, the fact that it is not state law, that is, scholars' law, or ultimately attributed to the divine will. Does that mean that it's, if not revolutionary, is at least potentially destabilizing of any form of political authority or political rule that does claim the sort of authority that we actually associate with political rule and states now, that once this version of law exists in the world with its universal claims, it also potentially has the ability to, in any context, to destabilize a grandizing political claims?
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这个马克思主义的教义核心其实是就是为了推翻，就是批判性的瓦解性的。所以说这个霍梅尼发动的伊斯兰革命马克思主义为他提供了一套反帝国主义阶级斗争的逻辑，合理化了他用一切革命资源去推翻旧政权。当然这套理论也能很好的和反伊斯兰主义里面强调的西方帝国主义是真正的敌人，现代性是真正的敌人，在批判层面非常契合。当然，批判成功之后，我们要重建的那个东西，这你不用管是完整的。伊斯兰在政治层面，在法律层面，在社会层面全部真正全面，真正实现伊斯兰社会。
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contemporary theologies or by the rulers but that's I would say a reflection of the post-normative you might even be cheeky and say post-orthodox expressions of Islam as an identity politics sectarianism rather like sectarianism in Ulster it's me versus you and the actual theologies not something anybody really thinks about which is very sad and one hopes that those countries can pull themselves together again but all species are not good at the moment I'm afraid. Sufism is a philosophy that embraces among other things ideas of purity asceticism and so on the ancient world was awash with notions of purity and asceticism what made this one different because it is different isn't it?
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当然这套理论也能很好的和反伊斯兰主义里面强调的西方帝国主义是真正的敌人，现代性是真正的敌人，在批判层面非常契合。当然，批判成功之后，我们要重建的那个东西，这你不用管是完整的。伊斯兰在政治层面，在法律层面，在社会层面全部真正全面，真正实现伊斯兰社会。我想说的是，我希望通过这期播客向大家说明这套这套形态，它并不来自于实业派本身的传统，它是一套全新的发明。它起源于这个穆斯林世界对于现代世界之堕落的反抗，并且说这个反抗的途径不是走向现代化，
S3：7 个窗口回退
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All the way from Tours to the Hindu Kush. From Samarkand, you know, to Poitiers, you know, it's the heyday of the empire. One state rule from Damascus. The Abbasids take over. Slightly more Shia in their smell. They're cousins of the prophet, not an Arab warian dynasty. And they take the rule involving more Persian and Turkish culture to Baghdad. And rule brilliantly from Baghdad in its golden heyday. And then the story becomes more complicated because what is forgotten is in the 10th century, there are very, very active Shiite empires formed.
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然后转换到了另外一个字母体系，然后在经过改造之后，进入到了阿拉伯字母体系。与其说是语言，不如说对于波斯人来说，他们的文化认同来自于一整个璀璨文明的历史，从一开始能够跟古希腊城邦政体相抗衡，被修西底德·西罗多德记载的古代波斯帝国一直到和罗马拜占庭帝国，长期对峙，是古典时代两大强权之一的萨珊王朝就是Sassanitz一直到公元7世纪被纳入阿拉伯帝国之后，
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They're cousins of the prophet, not an Arab warian dynasty. And they take the rule involving more Persian and Turkish culture to Baghdad. And rule brilliantly from Baghdad in its golden heyday. And then the story becomes more complicated because what is forgotten is in the 10th century, there are very, very active Shiite empires formed. In Egypt, the Fatimids. In Cairo, the Karmatians in the Arabian Peninsula.
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与其说他们更接近阿拉伯人，不如说他们更接近中国人一个波斯人的自我认知，包括了我上面列举的这一连串跟伊斯兰教无关，跟阿拉伯语无关，跟当前政府无关，就是差不多从古希腊文明时代开始，跟他几乎同步的璀璨的文明和历史。而且哪怕他们在古代波斯在古代被外族被突厥人统治的时候，被阿拉伯帝国统治的时候，这些统治者也主动选择接受并且拥抱波斯文明波斯文明中最璀璨的作品《猎王记》《沙拉美》它不是一个宗教作品。
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That's a great sadness to me that we don't have an idea or a picture of what Ismail's Tabriz really looks like, because one assumes that he had the power to make it look extraordinary. But we do know that it's just a decade. Here, Ismail and his forces have conquered almost all of Persia, Azerbaijan and Mesopotamia. He's sitting on a really very considerable empire. And Barnaby, one of the important things, of course, is that, again, he is Persian, isn't he? And this is one of the very first times that historic Persia has been reconquered under a person of Persian ethnicity since the time of the Arabs. Yes, this is why he remains a great Iranian national cultural hero, overlooking the Buyards and various small emirs.
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这种在艺术上给我的体感是波斯人是一个比阿拉伯人要来的更加世俗，更加开放、更加文明的民族在美学上精致的，可以媲美中国文明的民族。它的文化认同不是建立在一个真主的声音，就是阿拉伯语这样的神圣语言之上的波斯人的文化认同，建立在一整个庞大的历史传统之上。通过解释，以上波斯人和阿拉伯人的区别。我希望建立的第一个认知是这个认知在绝大多数1979年逃离伊朗的这些波斯人都会认可的那就是伊朗在历史上绝大多数时间几千年以来，相比于它周边的这些阿拉伯文明都是一个更加世俗化、更加开放、更加高度发达的文明。
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It's popular belief, buttress by some fairly dodgy traditions. Ultimately, a Zoroastrian idea. So coming back home to Persia. Is it? Well, I would like to follow that up. The Messiah starts off in Zoroastrianism and enters Christianity that way. It's just a title. You're saying that, you know, actually, even the followers of Ismail wouldn't have regarded him as the Messiah. That's just not a thing. It's one of those currents of belief that is always around in every Islamic society, watching for the end of days. The Quran is full of prescriptions about the end of the world and the day of judgment.
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我想在这里再次强调的是，伊斯兰教是一个起源于真主。上帝向先知穆罕默德用阿拉伯语传话，然后传出了一整本古兰经这样的一个宗教。对于波斯人来说，伊斯兰教是一个外来宗教。所以说我们现在要暂时忘记我刚才基里咕鲁讨论的所有跟波斯人有关的东西。我们现在先暂时离开伊朗，我们先快速的来过一遍。逊尼派和什叶派伊斯兰的分歧的起源。最初的分歧不是神学分歧，而是政治继承问题。重要的话再说一遍，逊尼派和什叶派真正的分歧是一个继承问题。
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One would call it sort of almost mythology of Islam rather than a doctrinal belief. And you do best if you just make reference to the coming of the end of the world and people think, well, we've got to have the Mardi first. That's interesting that people are going through such bloodletting that they think this must be what the end of the world looks like. Barnaby, I've got a question. At this point, how much of Persia is already Shia? A tiny minority or quite a lot of people would identify themselves as Shia? That's a really good question and beyond my can. I think it's basically the scholars and the leaders and everybody else who's coping.
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也就是说，我想说的是，在什叶派伊斯兰教基因中的一个特征是少数派什叶派在历史上绝大多数时候的自我认知是需要融入妥协掌权的逊尼派政府之中维持自己的信仰OK好的，接下来我们大家做好准备了吗？我们再来这个对于几乎所有人来说都非常陌生的。建立。在对于伊斯兰教义的一定理解之上，我们才能够加入的新的考量。那就是阿拉伯什叶派和波斯什叶派之间的区别。就像我说的，如今这个世界上90%的穆斯林都是逊尼派穆斯林。你要是遇见了一个阿拉伯穆斯林，你基本上可以假设他是一个逊尼派的穆斯林，但是什叶派阿拉伯人也是有的，
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So a Sufi can have everything that the Shia can do, music, art, you know, belief, poetry, but can still keep within the frontiers of their own traditions. But Barnaby, what I want to get an impression of is how far is it during the reign of Ismail that you begin to get Persia moving from a partly Sunni, partly Shia hodgepodge to being this bastion of Shiism? Because this happens during the reign of Shia Ismail, doesn't it? It does. And how does it happen? I'm not sure if we're allowed to now talk about the Battle of Kaldahan. Well, we can, of course. So, I mean, you know, you have Ismail who has successfully pushed back the boundaries of his own empire.
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前者的国教是什叶派伊斯兰，后者的国教是逊尼派伊斯兰，他们在历史上陷入了长期对抗。我们看到的是两个帝国的交战，是一个逊尼派穆斯林帝国和一个什叶派穆斯林帝国的交战。但是如果你是一个什叶派阿拉伯人，你夹在中间，你的处境是什么？你生活在首先你生活在一个由逊尼派奥斯曼帝国统治的地方。但是你在宗教上又和你的敌人，就是伊朗的什叶派是一样的。我在这里叽里咕噜采了这么一大堆。我想说什么呢？我想说的是，什叶派只有在1500年之后的伊朗内部才是多数派，多数派成为建制派，会给你带来一种心态上的改变，就是你可以不做老好人了，你可以不做和平主义者了。
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But Barnaby, what I want to get an impression of is how far is it during the reign of Ismail that you begin to get Persia moving from a partly Sunni, partly Shia hodgepodge to being this bastion of Shiism? Because this happens during the reign of Shia Ismail, doesn't it? It does. And how does it happen? I'm not sure if we're allowed to now talk about the Battle of Kaldahan. Well, we can, of course. So, I mean, you know, you have Ismail who has successfully pushed back the boundaries of his own empire. He's persuaded people, even on the Sunni side, that Shiaism is the true way, the true belief. But he does. I mean, the man that you've said is kind of undefeatable does get defeated eventually.
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我想说到这里，你可以理解，为什么沙特阿拉伯今天是愿意和以色列合作的，而伊朗是一定要和以色列拼个你死我活的。因为沙特阿拉伯目前的掌权者背后站着的不是穆斯林兄弟会。沙特目前的掌权家族是和穆斯林兄弟会有仇的。所以说我想说的是，如果你真正了解伊斯兰教义，你也能够理解为什么伊朗现在在做的这些事情和什叶派传统其实是一种背叛，或者说一种创新，起码是一种颠覆，就是他顶着什叶派这个名义在做的事情。
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The great Shia shrines in Iraq, Kabbalah and so on, the places at which Shia devotion is centered, after the Battle of Qaldehan, they become Ottoman territories. Don't they? We have a Shia country on the edge of the main Shia shrine, but the Shia shrine is in enemy territory.
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因为什叶派的圣地就距离这个黎凡特很远啊，他们的圣地除了所有穆斯林的圣地，也就是在沙特、阿拉伯的麦加和麦迪纳之外，他们教义中那些圣人殉道的地方都是在什么伊拉克在巴格达那边，
S4：3 个窗口回退
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It followed a pattern. At hinge moments in modern Iranian history, the Democrats have empowered the autocrats. And at the same time, the Pallavi dynasty overturned so violently in 1979 by an exiled Ayatollah, did more to liberalize and modernize Iran than the constitutionalists that both empowered and despised the Shah that ruled over them. I'm Eli Lake and you're listening to Breaking History. In this first of a two-part episode, we examine the Iranian riddle.
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后来的两个王朝，就是卡扎尔王朝和巴列维王朝。巴列维王朝。就是那个1979年被霍梅尼的伊斯兰革命推翻的王朝从1979年开始，一直到今天，我们看到的是一个霍梅尼通过伊斯兰革命建立的伊斯兰共和国化的伊朗。我在这里强调的是你想一想这个漫长的历史，你再去听一下我介绍卡塔尔历史的那几集播客，你就会知道这些文明之间波斯文明和绝大多数的目前中东政体背后所依附的这个文明是完全没有可比性的。
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This goes back to the Shia origins of Iran, which is a polyglot nation, a hodgepodge of Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Awasi Arabs, and many other smaller ethnicities. And while there are religious minorities in Iran, one of the factors that holds the country together since the early 1500s has been that most Iranians adhere to the Shia strain of Islam. The Shia believed that the rightful heir to the caliphate was Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law Ali. His martyrdom is a central theme of the Shia Muslim faith.
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卡里发在阿拉伯语中是领袖什叶派则认为继承必须要由先知家族内部的就是穆罕默德血脉成员来担任，特别是穆罕默德的堂弟兼女婿。阿里因此什叶派就什叶这个意思是阿里之党的意思。从第一任哈里发开始，穆斯林内部就产生了这样一个有关继承的政治分歧。对于什叶派穆斯林来说，他们这个派别最重要的另外一个事件是发生在卡尔巴拉的迅难，卡尔巴拉是伊拉克的一个地方，他是什叶派的圣地，卡尔巴拉对于迅尼派来说，就是一个无关紧要的地方。
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and political influence on none other than Ayatollah Khomeini. So yes, the radical clerics of 1953 supported the coup that many Western apologists today blame for fueling the 1979 Islamic Revolution. After the coup, Mosadez is tried and sentenced to prison. He ends up spending three years behind bars. He is spared a death sentence when the Shah intervenes. After his release, Mosadez is sent into internal exile on his family's estate east of Tehran and spends the rest of his life writing
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霍梅尼在1978年到1979年发动革命夺取政权，成为伊朗最高领袖。到了1989年，他就去世了。他的继任者哈尔梅伊如今86岁是从1989年以来直到今天的伊朗最高领袖作为伊朗的独裁者，哈尔梅伊亲自翻译了。就是我刚才说的这个泛伊斯兰主义穆斯林兄弟会中最重要的神学家库特的著作，把他这些著作，包括对于西方的批判，全部都从阿拉伯语翻译到了波斯语入著，到了加入进了当今什叶派的思想里面。