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目标片段因为从一开始查理科克所代表的运动，从来都不是要真正的跟自由派对话，他就是为了挑衅自由派owning the lips,用一种几乎恶作剧的方式来调衅自由派。对于当时还处在共和党边缘的这种草根出身的民粹保守组织来说，对于当时那些他的支持者，在大学校园里完全失去话语权、不敢发声的拥有保守倾向的年轻学生来说，带着有点幸灾乐祸的嘲讽行为，我觉得他更接近是一种政治游戏，而不是真正的政治实践。你从他们的口号中就知道owning the lips,不是talking to the lips.
来源片段He needed something to offer against Obama's newness because he could no longer be the guy that Foster Wallace had seen in 2000, the guy who could speak to that teenage boy. He was also running on a pretty conservative platform. And many of the voters that the Republicans needed to get back into American politics were people who felt that their views were somehow beyond the pale of conventional political discourse from the right. So he chose as his vice presidential running mate, relatively unknown politician, a considerably younger politician, a female politician, and a populist politician, Sarah Palin.
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来源片段
So 2004, Bush as the incumbent proves to be very hard to shift. The Democrats put up against him, John Kerry, and they try for the war hero strategy in the way that McCain was a war hero.
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慢慢的，然后突然之间他做到了在2024年大选中，大学年龄的选民极具又轻查理科克和我在大多数政治争论中都持有不同立场，但在美国政治可持续的可能性的方面，我们站在同一边，这应该是一场争论，而不是一场战争。
S1：2 个窗口回退
来源片段
When McCain had been running in 2000 and Foster Wallace went to cover him for Rolling Stone, one of the oddities of the way Foster Wallace writes about it as seen from now, though at the time I imagine it didn't seem odd at all, is he describes McCain as the populist. He's the populist candidate in 2000. And he doesn't mean that negatively. It's not meant to be a term of abuse. He's describing a politician who is seeking a connection with ordinary voters that packaged professional party politics has seemed to lose the ability to conjure up. And the populist is the politician who finds that magic connection outside of the party machine and the party box. And it's necessary.
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我想说的是，我们可以说2024年美国大选标志着查理科克以及他所开创的这个他所代表的这个草根民粹保守运动进入到了美国主流。但是我们不能因为他在过去两年中成为主流，就忘记他的起点。他的起点是草根运动，起点是owning the lips,收拾主流自由派，而且是用一种近乎恶作剧的方式，这是一种政治游戏，这是他的核心剧本。我们看到他带进主流的恰恰是这种戏谑的草根政治，他不代表成熟的对话，不代表妥协，也不代表和不同意的声音共存。
来源片段
And he speaks a language which is recognizably not political speak. He doesn't sound like any other politician in the way that Palin, for a brief moment, didn't sound like any other politician. His politics is brutal. And the establishment, both the Republican Party establishment and also the mainstream media establishment, assumed that they would do what they had done in the past, which was to box this thing in, to make force it back into the box of American politics. So it could be contained and, if necessary, destroyed.
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但是我们不能因为他在过去两年中成为主流，就忘记他的起点。他的起点是草根运动，起点是owning the lips,收拾主流自由派，而且是用一种近乎恶作剧的方式，这是一种政治游戏，这是他的核心剧本。我们看到他带进主流的恰恰是这种戏谑的草根政治，他不代表成熟的对话，不代表妥协，也不代表和不同意的声音共存。总体来说，这种政治态度对于不同意自己的人的想法，戏谑要高于尊重收拾自由派是一种消遣活动。
来源片段
Well, this story, I think, ends in 2016, when another outsider candidate vies for the Republican nomination. And it turns out that it was Sarah Palin's populism and not McCain's populism that was the harbinger of the future.
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民粹化，适合在互联网上、社交媒体上病毒式传播的新型民主政治播客的最后，我还想要讨论特朗普和查理科克的关系，关注过2016年美国总统竞选的人，可能记得当时特朗普是一个非常非常不可能成为美国总统的人选。
来源片段
He said, or he was reported to have said this is from a article in the magazine on background briefing, but it sounds like Donald Trump. He said, what the fuck are we doing that for? The guy was a fucking loser. The fact that Trump could say these things about John McCain in 2016 and 2018 and become president and plausibly in 2023, I have no idea what's going to happen, become president again, is evidence of how the story that David Foster Wallace tells, which is completely recognizable today. It feels like the link between 1972 and 2016 or 2020 or 2024.
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后来说，他后来连续大概90天和小特朗普一起在竞选路上奔波。如今这两个人是密友。小特朗普曾经早在2016年总统竞选之后就公开的在查理科克的活动上说过，如果没有查理科克，我父亲今天就不会是美国总统。特朗普本人在2024年大选之后也说过，同样的话，在特朗普的第一个任期内，查理科克就已经采访过特朗普本人做过公开活动。然后在当时小特朗普就已经说他准备和查理科克一起写一本有关美国竞选的书。
S2：4 个窗口回退
来源片段
It's the story of how a few centrist renegades saved the Democrats 40 years ago from oblivion. The year was 1984. And if you were weeping over last week's electoral blowout while Trump's victory was light stuff compared to the Reagan landslide against Walter Mondale. The Democrats were not just in disarray. They were on life support and in real danger of vanishing completely. And yet, eight years later, they found their savior, a young governor from Arkansas named Bill Clinton.
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当今美国政坛在美国政坛中崛起的历史，甚至要略早于特朗普参加总统竞选。我还清楚的。记得我刚刚知道查理科克这个人的名字的时候，他甚至都还没有决定要支持特朗普在2016年作为共和党的总统候选人，如果你收听过上一期播客，我讨论新保守主义的崛起，在里根时代到达顶峰，然后在冷战结束之后慢慢示威的这个过程的话，再去对照过去十年查理科克给美国右翼政治树立的这种全新模式。
来源片段
And so from that sense, you could say, Mondale had the most unified Democratic Party ever. The only people who didn't support him were the voters. To me, that was a big problem. And you can see an echo of this problem today. And my basic diagnosis is that we have allowed the far left to have outsized power over the messaging and policymaking of the Democratic Party, which is causing us to fall out of touch with the working class. This is Richie Torres, a Democratic House representative from New York on the lesson of the 2024 election.
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这个关键的竞选，年用他的口才创办一个面向年轻人的草根政治组织。因为他当时意识到，共和党内部是没有能力跟年轻人对话的。共和党建制派都是像罗姆尼这样距离年轻选民非常遥远的富裕老白男。我们可以说Montgomery在那个时候意识到的特质，后来也恰好是今天占据了，成为了主流的保守。民粹派。对于建制保守建制派的批评，对吧？就现在的民粹右翼会管共和党内的建制。右翼说你们是僵尸里根主义者，你们都已经老了。
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You have the luxury of advocating for defunding the police. But from my constituents, defunding the police is not a utopian ideal. It's a dystopian reality. It will lead to more violence, not less. And so for me, the lesson here is that working-class voters of color have no interest in becoming guinea pigs for the utopian social experiments of the far left. Utopian social experiments of the far left is the stuff of resistance, not opposition. And opposition operates in political reality. And so the Democrats should criticize Donald Trump when he deserves it.
目标片段
因为从一开始查理科克所代表的运动，从来都不是要真正的跟自由派对话，他就是为了挑衅自由派owning the lips,用一种几乎恶作剧的方式来调衅自由派。对于当时还处在共和党边缘的这种草根出身的民粹保守组织来说，对于当时那些他的支持者，在大学校园里完全失去话语权、不敢发声的拥有保守倾向的年轻学生来说，带着有点幸灾乐祸的嘲讽行为，我觉得他更接近是一种政治游戏，而不是真正的政治实践。你从他们的口号中就知道owning the lips,不是talking to the lips.
来源片段
2024 is the year when Clinton's working class coalition became Trump's. That's a tough pill to swallow for Democrats, particularly Democrats who were old enough to remember the glory days of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. But it should also be a cause for optimism for the Democrats of this generation. Trump's coalition looks formidable after last week's election, but coalitions change. And his policies today, particularly if he pursues the tariffs he promised on the trail, are likely to exacerbate the inflation that got him elected in the first place.
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特朗普当时在2024年大选摇摆州的翻红，尤其是宾州很多评论员把这个事情归功于查理科克。因为在24年美国大选前，就是投票快要结束的几个月，查理科克每天都奔波在摇摆州大学校园里，为特朗普摇起呐喊。所以在结尾我想说的是，查理科克和特朗普现象是深度绑定，而且是双向奔赴。对于这两个人来说，这是一个双赢的局面。特朗普掌权进入美国白宫，乃至于现在美国政府的三权分立，全部都掌握在共和党手里。
S3：2 个窗口回退
来源片段
those kinds of ways, but that still also have some deep roots in corporate America and in country clubs and in the upper middle class that sociologically remains a significant part of Republican voters. And when push comes to shove, they seem to keep voting for policies that are much more traditional on the economy. So where do you see the set of arguments you're making about the economy finding a political home in the United States? Or do you think they will continue to be as homeless as they have been in the last decades? That's an excellent question. I do not see these mass membership organizations being reconstituted spontaneously anytime soon. So the parties will continue to be dominated by their very upscale, college-educated primary electorates in the primary election who are driven much more by post-material culture war issues than they are by material concerns, certainly not the material concerns of working class majorities.
目标片段
因为从一开始查理科克所代表的运动，从来都不是要真正的跟自由派对话，他就是为了挑衅自由派owning the lips,用一种几乎恶作剧的方式来调衅自由派。对于当时还处在共和党边缘的这种草根出身的民粹保守组织来说，对于当时那些他的支持者，在大学校园里完全失去话语权、不敢发声的拥有保守倾向的年轻学生来说，带着有点幸灾乐祸的嘲讽行为，我觉得他更接近是一种政治游戏，而不是真正的政治实践。你从他们的口号中就知道owning the lips,不是talking to the lips.
来源片段
And is that where you locate our disagreement about populism? Well, let me say that I don't consider myself a populist. I see populism and technocracy as equal and opposed evils. What I mean by populism is a charismatic bona-partist or caesars figure claiming to represent the undifferentiated masses against a corrupt establishment. And that can be the left, the right, or the center in some cases. I consider myself a pluralist. And I've written in Compact Magazine and elsewhere about this idea of pluralism about intermediate institutions, the absence of which lead to this doomed loop between technocracy and populism.
目标片段
我们看到他带进主流的恰恰是这种戏谑的草根政治，他不代表成熟的对话，不代表妥协，也不代表和不同意的声音共存。总体来说，这种政治态度对于不同意自己的人的想法，戏谑要高于尊重收拾自由派是一种消遣活动。我在这里描绘这一切的目的，不是想要对查理科克提出批评，或者是赞扬我想说的，仅仅是查理科克以及他背后站着的一整个保守派的民粹化代表的就是当今美国政治的娱乐化，
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And let's remember, before Trump descended the elevator in Trump Tower, a lot of people expected that in 2016, the Republican candidate would be the brother of a recent president and the son of a recent president.
目标片段
关注过2016年美国总统竞选的人，可能记得当时特朗普是一个非常非常不可能成为美国总统的人选。