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目标片段这个时候哈贝克出台了供暖法，这项法律基本上是想要推动德国人在家中安装热泵，而不是燃气供暖，
来源片段And then came Habek's heating law, which was a law that wanted to basically push people to install heat pumps instead of gas heating in their homes.
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来源片段
OK, it's Berlin Briefing Time, and today we're going to get you briefed on the Green Party here in Germany. They're fighting to stay in government after this month's elections. First of all, we're going to be digging into their beliefs and their pretty extraordinary journey from peace movement hippies of the 1980s to defence hawks today. Then we'll talk about their candidate for Chancellor, Robert Harbeck, a man who's adored by some, and a proper hate figure for others. And finally, we'll look ahead with some predictions of whether the Greens will make it back into power. I'm here with Julius Sardelli and Ben Knight, and both of them have followed the Greens closely over the years, so it's great to have you both here.
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德国选择党排名第二，获得20%多的选票。舒尔兹领导的社民党排名第三，获得16%多的选票。接下来这个Robert Habek领导的绿党获得超过12%的选票。前面这三个政党所代表的立场，我们已经讨论过了。作为一个明明不是分析德国政治，但是莫名其妙的成为了小宇宙上分析欧洲，尤其是德国当代政治最深入的播客，我们今天静止到底，我们将讨论绿党的主张和信仰，它究竟是左派还是右派？
来源片段
Well, I think it's quite easy to forget now, because they're so established as a government party and already been in government in several states in Germany that they started out as this sort of collection of fringe groups, essentially, who were like protesters, pacifists, all over the West Germany. They were like, especially from the anti-nuclear power movement, and they sort of coalesced into a party in the early 1980s, and it became, and they really established themselves now as a very much kind of almost a centrist party of government.
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40年回到80年代，在20世纪80年代初的西德，一个全新政党出现了今天关心德国当代政治的人看着绿党，通常忘记了今天的绿党，他已经变成了一个成熟的执政党，已经在德国好几个州执政了。所以我们常常忘记他最初是一个边缘群体的集合。
来源片段
Well, I think it's quite easy to forget now, because they're so established as a government party and already been in government in several states in Germany that they started out as this sort of collection of fringe groups, essentially, who were like protesters, pacifists, all over the West Germany. They were like, especially from the anti-nuclear power movement, and they sort of coalesced into a party in the early 1980s, and it became, and they really established themselves now as a very much kind of almost a centrist party of government. Yeah, it's a really amazing journey they've been on, isn't it, Julius? So give a feel for the vibe, yeah? Like Ben was saying, I mean, it's a bit sort of hippy. I mean, we're in the depths of the Cold War still, or the final decade really of the Cold War. You know, opposing nuclear power, for instance, was a major part of their platform. But they quickly, despite those kind of, you know, crusty kind of roots, they got into parliament fast, didn't they?
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他们在80年代初对于德国政坛的意义不亚于，或者说本质上跟我们上一期分析过的这个在过去十年崛起的极右AFD和去年崛起的极左BSW差不多。我说的不是他们政治立场差不多，而是在政治结构中的地位。80年代的绿党是一个挑战者，如今的绿党已经稳固了自己是一个中间派的执政党。绿党崛起于冷战的最后十年，反对何能是绿党政纲一开始的主要核心诉求。
来源片段
But they quickly, despite those kind of, you know, crusty kind of roots, they got into parliament fast, didn't they? Yes, it took them basically three years from their founding of the party in 1980 to entering parliament in 1983.
目标片段
这个旅程突破5%的支持率，对于当年的绿党来说，差不多花了三年左右。他们在1983年成功进入德国议会。
来源片段
And there's these famous pictures of Joschka Fischer, one of the big figures of the party who was sworn in wearing Nike, white Nike sneakers.
目标片段
绿党领袖Yoshka Fischer他在宣誓就职的时候，穿着一双白色耐克运动鞋。
来源片段
They weren't wearing suits, they were wearing like worn sweaters and sneakers. And it was kind of a breath of fresh air in a way in the sort of German political environment.
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我们不穿西装，我们穿着破旧的毛衣和运动鞋，我们是新鲜的空气，我们是嬉皮士，我们要给德国政坛注入一股新鲜空气，我们是挑战者。
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And I've brought along their program for the federal election in 1998. And this was the election where they went from being an opposition force to they actually managed to get into government into a coalition with the social democrats at the time.
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让我们来到20世纪的90年代末，绿党在1998年德国联邦选举中，通过这个选举成功，从反对派变成了执政者进入了执政政府与当时的社会民主党结成联盟。我们去看看这个98年联邦选举中的党纲呃，写了什么？
来源片段
So it says, quote from their party program, the long term anti militarist strategy of the Greens aims to dissolve military alliances and national armies into a pan European peace and security order. It must replace NATO and enable comprehensive disarmament and stripping the power of the military industrial complex.
目标片段
不管怎么样，我们来看一看绿党98年的党纲，他们说，我们绿党会长期坚定的反对军国主义战略，旨在解散军事联盟和国家军队，形成泛欧洲的和平与安全秩序。
来源片段
It must replace NATO and enable comprehensive disarmament and stripping the power of the military industrial complex.
目标片段
这种泛欧洲和平与安全秩序必须取代北约，实现全面裁军，剥夺军事工业综合体的权利。换成大白。
来源片段
And especially in East Germany, they have almost they they have very few voters now. And I think a lot of that anti NATO sentiment has sort of coalesced around the BSW, the Bundeswehr Wagenknecht.
目标片段
那么我们今天可以看到，德国现在的反北约情绪已经重新聚集在了那些新冒出来的反对党身上新冒出来的这些AFD BSW上一期播客的主题，对吧？这些更年轻的反对党几乎捕捉了所有反北约的德国选民。
来源片段
And during their first stint in government, quite soon in 1999, with the war in the Balkans, Yoshka Fischer, who was the foreign minister, so the guy in the sneakers, you just mentioned, exactly.
目标片段
在他们第一次执政期间发生了什么1999年巴尔干战争爆发，这个时候穿着运动鞋宣誓的绿党领袖Yoshka Fischer是这个执政联盟的外交部长，
来源片段
And he was faced with the choice of whether Germany would support a NATO intervention against Yugoslavia at the time, which was mostly it was Serbia and Montenegro in the Kosovo war.
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当时他面临着一个选择，德国是否支持北约对当时的南斯拉夫进行干预。
来源片段
Yoshka Fischer got a paint bomb thrown at him there.
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但是Yoshka Fischer在那个党代会上，被人扔了一枚红色油漆炸弹。
来源片段
So on the one hand, you know, in favor of liberal military intervention when human rights are at stake, but against an invasion that they saw as illegal under international law. And that was in the case of the Iraq war. Okay.
目标片段
同时他们也反对入侵他国，反对国际法。所以一方面在巴尔干战争的时候，他们支持军事干预，然后在伊拉克战争的时候，又反对美国入侵伊拉克。
来源片段
This demands reliable funding with a defense budget that invests significantly more than 2% of gross domestic product.
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我们知道这需要国防预算，我们知道投资额需要超过国内生产总值GDP的2%。
来源片段
So we've gone from wanting to dismantle the military and dismantle NATO to strengthening NATO and increasing spending on defense.
目标片段
因此，绿党想要从解散军队和解散北约转变为想要加强北约和加强国防开支。
来源片段
5% of GDP military spending.
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之前是国内GDP1%用于军事支出，这是一个180度的转变。
来源片段
And it all sort of changed again with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. This is seen by the Greens as the biggest violation of international law that there is violating the sovereignty of a sovereign state.
目标片段
绿党认为俄罗斯入侵乌克兰是对于国际法最大的亵渎。俄罗斯违反了一个主权国家的主权。
来源片段
This is seen by the Greens as the biggest violation of international law that there is violating the sovereignty of a sovereign state. And with the head of Russia, Vladimir Putin, currently seen as a dictator and someone who doesn't respect human rights.
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俄罗斯违反了一个主权国家的主权。绿党把普京视为一个不尊重人权的独裁者，这些自由价值观对于绿党来说是最重要的。
来源片段
And so for them, it's also on the one hand the issue of defending sovereign state Ukraine democracy, but also stopping a leader that is seen as dictatorial, autocratic and going against a lot of the values that the Greens stand for. Yeah. So from that point of view, I mean, the Greens would argue that this is absolutely coherent with previous positions.
目标片段
对于他们来说，绿党首先要捍卫主权国家，乌克兰作为一个民主国家的主权。另外一方面，他们也要阻止一个被在他们眼中，是独裁专制，方方面面都践踏着绿党价值观领导人的普京。
来源片段
So from that point of view, I mean, the Greens would argue that this is absolutely coherent with previous positions.
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从这个角度来说，绿党会说，我们目前的立场和之前的立场是完全一致的。99年。
来源片段
Again, China is not a democratic state. And the greens try to also lead with a value based foreign policy, value based policy.
目标片段
绿党的对华政策出于他们自己价值观的范畴。在他们心中，中国不是一个民主国家，绿党的对华政策，基于他们自己的价值观，你可以说比起一个纯粹的现实政治态度、
来源片段
And the greens try to also lead with a value based foreign policy, value based policy. So they are, I think, trying to find the different difficult ballots between Germany's interest and economic interest and strategic interest and the values that they want to try to defend.
目标片段
realpolitik态度，这是一个更加艰难的平衡。他们需要平衡的是德国利益、经济利益、战略利益，以及他们自己要捍卫的这套在很多人心中已经过时的自由民主价值观。
来源片段
And so they kind of follow this thinking that you often got from the Biden administration that the world is kind of dividing between democracies and authoritarians.
目标片段
在这一点上，他们非常尊崇拜登政府，经常想要传达的想法，那就是世界正在民主国家和独裁国家之间产生分歧。
来源片段
And Annalena Baobach, the foreign minister, even did once refer to Xi Jinping, the Chinese president, as a dictator, didn't she, which got got an angry reaction from the Chinese. The Chinese certainly do not like the Green Party.
目标片段
而绿党则站在民主国家这边，我不知道大家记不记得绿党的外交部长安纳利纳Bellbach曾经将中国称为一个由独裁者领导的国家，这在当时引起了中国人的愤怒反应。
来源片段
Well, I think that basically every German foreign minister or economy minister who travels to China is under like a lot of pressure from domestically, and especially that even more so than the from the Greens to at least say something about human rights, right? At least like, at least get a sound bite out while you're in the press conference saying, I talked to the president of China about human rights.
目标片段
你可以说他们是德国政坛目前比较罕见的谨慎的民主斗士，基本上每一个访问中国的德国外交部长或者是经济部长，回国之后，都会面临来自绿党的压力。
来源片段
And now they're more of a, say institutionalised party supporting basically green transformation. They want to transform the German economy and German industry in a way that allows it to be climate neutral, but also still strong and successful. Yeah.
目标片段
他没有办法维持这种嬉皮市的氛围。他们可以在广义的层面说，我们支持绿色转型，通过绿色转型来改变德国经济和工业。
来源片段
And now they're more of a, say institutionalised party supporting basically green transformation. They want to transform the German economy and German industry in a way that allows it to be climate neutral, but also still strong and successful. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, and you see that in the party programme, you know, this title that they have kind of grow together, you know, so it's partly about kind of bringing society together, but it's also about economic growth because the German economy has been suffering. So what's the economic angle on climate change that they have? Well, that we can sort of invest our way out of trouble. And you know, that is the idea, I think that they really, and I think with the Harberg, especially because he's also an economy minister, that is the, that he's under a lot of pressure in this election campaign to show that he's in favour of growth because, you know, the German economy isn't doing that well.
目标片段
他们可以在广义的层面说，我们支持绿色转型，通过绿色转型来改变德国经济和工业。但是对于当今德国来说，之前听我分析过德国经济的人，我在这里就不再重复了。对于德国经济来说，最重要的问题不再是绿色转型，而是经济增长，摆脱经济零增长，摆脱经济负增长。那对于绿党来说，在这个节点，他们没有办法承受着整天嚷嚷着要搞环保、绿色转型的这个政治代价。绿党领袖哈贝克作为一个经济部长，在这次竞选中承受的很大压力，表明他需要支持经济增长，然后他不断重复的话术，就是我们要通过投资来摆脱困境，我们需要借钱投资绿色基建应对气候变化。
来源片段
Like we have to, we have to sort of invest our way out of it. And there's an angle of this, that, you know, they talk about needing to borrow money as well in order to invest in the kind of infrastructure that you need to go green to fight climate change.
目标片段
绿党领袖哈贝克作为一个经济部长，在这次竞选中承受的很大压力，表明他需要支持经济增长，然后他不断重复的话术，就是我们要通过投资来摆脱困境，我们需要借钱投资绿色基建应对气候变化。这点我们在之前讨论梅尔兹的时候已经说过了，为什么借钱？
来源片段
And this is politically, you know, a pretty sensitive area in Germany. This idea, so this thing that some listeners will have heard of called the debt break, which is enshrined in the German constitution, which places very, very strict limits on how much the German government can borrow, Juliet.
目标片段
在德国政治上是一个极其敏感的话题，因为不让政府借钱，是被写入德国宪法里面的，德国政府可以借多少钱？宪法对此进行了严格的限制。
来源片段
The money that is taken has to be spent on investment, obviously for the Greens, in particular on investment in green initiatives, green transformation. And we see it with among the German public, it's pretty much split 50 50 almost between those who want a reform and those who want to, you know, keep that debt break going.
目标片段
我们在绿党中可以看到，他们是最支持修宪，通过改革宪法来增加德国能够借钱的这个数量，增加投资，通过增加投资来绿色转型的一个政党。
来源片段
And we see it with among the German public, it's pretty much split 50 50 almost between those who want a reform and those who want to, you know, keep that debt break going. But it is an issue where we've seen also openings from the social Democrats for reform, in part also from the conservative CDU.
目标片段
这个经济问题，借钱问题，也是一个超越德国党派的重要德国内政问题。我们在社民党中可以看到，中左翼的社民党对于这种改革持有开放态度，部分的保守联盟中，右翼也支持通过修宪来改变德国政府能借多少钱？
来源片段
And yeah, I wouldn't say that there are particularly radicals, though, I don't think they were like, they're not the urban radicals, they're sort of the urban realists. So maybe some of those people, obviously the people who were there at the beginning, you know, you know, pretty late in life now, some of them. But you know, maybe as they've got older, they've also become a bit less radical along the way. Let's move on to our second section now and talk about the people. Yeah, we want to talk about two people, Robert Harbeck, who's the candidate for Chancellor, who we just mentioned, and also his co-leader of the party, Anna-Lina Baerbock.
目标片段
我觉得阅读历史告诉我，真正伟大的政治家是存在的，真正伟大的政治家可以同时兼顾两者。但是真正伟大的政治家是非常非常非常非常罕见的。播客的。最后我想简单的讨论一下绿党领袖哈贝克，我不认为哈贝克是我上面说的这个伟大的政治家。但是我们可以从哈贝克的这些个人特质延伸出去，看得到今天支持绿党的基本盘是一群怎样的人。我们之前讨论德国其他政客的时候，我说过，我认为社民党领袖舒尔兹是默克尔2.0版本保守联盟领袖梅尔兹。我觉得他是一个硬汉商人，是一个在身份政治崛起之前90年代的政客，然后那两个极左和极右的领袖，
来源片段
Now, I think that the thing about him is that like a few years ago, when this government started, he was always seen as a really good communicator. I mean, we kind of forget this now, but up until sort of halfway through this government, he was seen as the guy who could explain the government's problems quite well.
目标片段
如果非要拿绿党领袖哈贝克和一个美国政客比较的话，我觉得他是德国奥巴马，他在执政期间的名声一直是一个出色的沟通者，他能够解释并且传达政府问题。
来源片段
And I think actually, in a lot of ways, he's a bit like the German Obama, because he also had these sort of literary pretensions. And I think that he kind of wants to project this sort of sense of casual, cool, but also a bit intellectual.
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而且哈贝克身上有一种知识分子的气质，他有一个博士学位，好像是哲学博士，他是一名翻译会说丹麦语写过儿童书籍，写过剧本，有一点文学上的小野心，并且你要是去看过他的公众演讲，会发现他散发着一种酷酷的随意的气质。
来源片段
So Russia invades Ukraine, and Germany finds itself without any Russian gas at some point. The gas pipelines are stopped.
目标片段
俄罗斯入侵乌克兰之后，德国因为非常依赖俄罗斯天然气。然而在某个时刻，天然气管道被切断了。
来源片段
And Habek had to scramble as an economy and energy minister to find the solution to keep the country from freezing in the winter, basically.
目标片段
哈贝克作为经济，能源部长，不得不努力寻找方案，以防止德国在冬天结冰那段时间，对于住在德国的人来说非常艰难，
来源片段
People were scared.
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大家心里都很害怕。
来源片段
Campaigns were started against it. It was called the Heizungshammer, the heating hammer in some of the press.
目标片段
在一些媒体上，他们管这个供暖法叫做Haitons Hammer!供暖锤。因为人们觉得哦!
来源片段
This sense, as I was just saying, that the Greens were kind of like, they had their heads in the clouds. They were thinking about climate change, while ordinary people just wanted to pay their bills, right, Julia? Yeah.
目标片段
有一些人说，你们只考虑气候变化，不考虑普通人连账单都付不起了。然后绿党为此感到背叛，对吧？
S1：2 个窗口回退
来源片段
I mean, that's if you believe what Friedrich Maertz keeps saying, and I think that a lot of the CDU, and I think a lot of the sort of the right wing part of the general political spectrum, generally sees the Green Party as sort of poison as a sort of, we need to stay as far away from them as possible, because they represent cargo bikes and elitism and a heating law that was really elitist. And I think that all the, so if you listen to, I mean, the FDP who we mentioned before, the leader, he almost wanted his own party to declare that they would never enter a coalition with the Greens ever again.
目标片段
这场风波，你可以说让德国至今有很多右翼人士都将绿党视为毒药，认为我们不应该跟他们合作，不应该跟他们组织联盟。因为他们代表的绿党代表的是骑着电动自行车，住在大城市里，吃着高价有机素食的整天嚷嚷着我们要和平呼吁和平站在宇宙中心，呼吁和平呼吁爱的城市精英，我们要远离这种人，你要是经常听我聊天的话，你应该知道，在我心中所有的刻板印象都有一定的事实依据，包括针对我的刻板印象。
来源片段
But it's, it's, it's urban night, educated, well educated, quite white upper middle class people. Kind of woke as well, yeah, I guess they get criticized by the far right as kind of woke, yeah. Yes. And for the last few years, the Greens have tried to turn themselves into a party of the center, a party for the center of society. And I don't think they're able to, they haven't gotten there yet. And I, I haven't quite cracked why exactly they're not managing because they have focused in this election campaign more on making life more affordable. If you look at their policies there's some of, they're one of the parties that would make, that would benefit the most, the poorest people in the country.
目标片段
我们可以说是绿党基本盘，他这个稳定的选民群体，他就是有一个固定的属性，这是一个相当城市化，相当富裕，相当受过教育、相当白人的选民基础。普通的绿党选民基本盘就是那些住在城市里面上过大学的，不是特别激进的，倾向于温和倾向于进步，倾向于白人，倾向于政治正确的中产阶级的。你可以说知识分子就是我这种货色的人会认识的朋友，基本上都是绿党支持者。在过去几年中，我们看到的是，绿党虽然试图一直把自己变成代表社会基本盘的政党。
来源片段
And for the last few years, the Greens have tried to turn themselves into a party of the center, a party for the center of society.
目标片段
在过去几年中，我们看到的是，绿党虽然试图一直把自己变成代表社会基本盘的政党。